Fear, Control, and the Idols We Build | Jake Doberenz | 024

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Everything comes down to I want
to control the situation and I'm

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afraid of what happens if I
don't.

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That is the common thing of
whatever is the idol of the of

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the episode that we bring
whatever it is I want to control

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because I'm terrified of what
will happen to me if I am not in

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control of that.
Welcome to When You Look, where

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ordinary people share their
extraordinary experiences and

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you get to decide, was it
coincidence or God?

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Jake, welcome to When You Look
Man, Really glad to have you on

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the show.
It's it's an honor.

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It truly is.
I'm so excited.

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Well, we are in for, I think,
what's going to be a fabulous

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conversation.
But before we dive into all of

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that, let's get to know each
other a little bit more.

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Tell our listeners who you are
and a little bit of your back

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story.
Oh, man, yeah.

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This is my least favorite
question to be asked on podcasts

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because it's hard to know, like,
what do I, what do I say?

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What do I list, you know?
But I, I think I'll kind of

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respond with the story.
I'll kind of answer both your

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questions there.
You know, I was raised in a

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Christian home, mostly things a
OK, doing good.

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We, you know, mostly things
were, were nice and easy.

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And over that period of time, I
realized as a young child, or at

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least what I thought was that I,
I knew everything.

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I had figured out the faith.
I'd kind of mastered what I

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needed to know.
Everybody else not quite as

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intelligent as me.
I got it figured out and I

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wanted to be a little bit of
everything, but with a Christian

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spin on it.
So I entertained ideas of

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wanting to be a Christian lawyer
or or politician or biologist,

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whatever the the job of the
month was.

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And then when I came to college,
I decided to major in, in

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biblical studies in theology
because I said I can't do it

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all.
But man, all these people, they

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got to understand how wrong they
are.

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So I'll train the biologist, the
lawyers in the whatever.

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I'll train the Christian version
of all of that.

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So got my, my bachelor's in
biblical studies and my master's

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in theological studies, did some
communication studies in there

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too.
And the goal was to be a

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professor, was to be a teacher,
was to be somebody with a

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platform, tell everybody how
wrong they are.

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And along that journey, I
realized that hey, actually I

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was wrong about some things.
I didn't everything figured out

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and certainly my spirit was not
in the right place.

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And so since then, it's been a
journey of, you know, yeah, I

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still think people are wrong
about stuff.

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I'm, I'll just throw that out
there.

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Not everybody gets things right.
And I think I know a couple

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things here and there.
But it is a journey of

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unlearning that combative
attitude and instead calling

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people to really important
things instead of getting

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engaged in a lot of issues that
were just not central to the

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gospel, that were just not the
most important thing in the

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world.
My, my journey now has led me to

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still to still speak and to
still preach, but hopefully, and

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this is my intent for the
conversation today comes off way

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more loving than the 13 year old
screaming at the public school

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centers and things like that.
I don't know.

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I hope that answers the
question.

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Now.
Now today I, I have my own

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podcast, Christianity Without
Compromise, and I also produce

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podcasts and things like that.
Spent some time in education,

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spent some time in ministry, but
have kind of felt my ministry is

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kind of using these online
mediums, right?

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The same thing you're doing
here.

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So that's where that's where I
live now.

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And that's what I do, yeah.
Awesome.

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Well, thanks for that back
story.

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And if I recall, you also have a
master's on the theological side

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of things as well, right?
Yeah, I jumped in from the

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bachelor's, technically
bachelor's in biblical studies

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and then my master's is, here's
the fancy thing, the master of

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theological studies, Scripture
emphasis thesis tract.

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So I wrote a thesis a part of
that too.

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So very, I'm very nerdy.
I'll get a PHD1 of these days

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too next year is kind of my my
soft plan there 'cause I just

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kind of like that nerdy side, I
suppose, of theology, yeah.

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Nice.
Well, hey, we believe firmly

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that there's a lot more to see
when you look.

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And so it sounds like your
studies continue to to move you

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in that direction.
So let's go back to one of the

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things you talked about a moment
ago and that was this point of

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where you realized you weren't
right about everything.

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Tell us a little bit more about.
That sure?

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Well, like I, like I said, like
man, when I grow up, nobody

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taught me necessarily to be
prideful.

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Nobody taught me to be arrogant,
but they taught me that I was

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right.
And so when, when you're a kid

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and your brain isn't fully
developed, you start thinking,

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oh, I think I've have everything
figured out.

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And there are there are aspects
of Christian subculture that are

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very that that have kind of the
spirit of if it's in the secular

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world, if it's in the culture,
I'm not going to believe it.

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That's wrong automatically.
And they definitely get some

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stuff wrong in the world, but
not everything is necessarily

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wrong.
And so I, I just had a spirit of

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and it's my little anti
authoritarian part of me.

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I suppose just I have the truth.
Everybody else is wrong.

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And so when you go to study
under the feet of some really

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smart people who luckily were
very gracious professors at, at

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my university, and what what
they did was expose me to just

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new ideas and new ways of
thinking.

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They weren't indoctrinating me.
It was just, hey, have you

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considered this?
And what was insane for me was

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how like nice they were about
it.

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And that was actually really
frustrating because I had a view

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in my head of, well, I already
have everything figured out.

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If they believe XYZ, they're
probably secretly A satanist or

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something insane like that.
I don't know that I actually

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believe that, but that was the
idea, right?

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If you believe something
differently than me, you

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probably are a terrible evil
person.

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Turns out no, like I was
privileged to go to a small

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private Christian School where,
you know, I have swam in a

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couple professors backyard pools
and like I've got another kids

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and one of them brought his dog
to class for until he was told

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you're not allowed to do that.
Like, you know, you get to know

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these people as human beings and
you realize, oh, you're actually

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not evil terrible.
You just believe something

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differently.
And and over time, I I started

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to believe some of the things
that they were pointing out, not

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necessarily everything, but I
but I changed.

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I think that's one of the powers
of, of education and, and that

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doesn't necessarily have to take
place in a university setting,

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but being exposed to different
ideas and realizing that there

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are reasons people believe
things like, you know, even the

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most insane beliefs today,
there's a reason you believe

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that.
And I think it's really

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important to explore that.
Sometimes you'll find, OK, well,

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somewhere along the chain here,
you, you went off track.

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And other times you're like, oh,
you might be on to something.

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So that's a big part of my
journey for sure is, is the

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power of education.
And, and it can make some people

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very pompous.
And I have to reel that back in

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myself sometimes too.
But it also made me much more

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charitable to people.
Right.

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I, I understand.
Hey, differences exist, you

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know, just accept that.
Yeah.

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Nice, so it sounds like you just
kind of described this

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transition from hypermyopic.
I got this all figured out to

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people that I really respect.
Have begun to open my mind to

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some other ideas that can be
really valid though.

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Thanks for sharing all that.
Absolutely.

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So you put a lot of emphasis on
idols.

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Tell us a little bit more about
that.

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Well, you know, I, I suppose
that that fire that I've always

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kind of had in my heart, but
that wasn't always directed

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towards good ends.
I'm just trying to steer that to

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something more helpful for
people.

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So as a kid, I felt like I was
in the so-called culture wars,

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which honestly, I couldn't even
give you a definition of what

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that means, right?
But it's just this idea of like

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we are fighting against
everything in the world,

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everything secular, everything,
whatever.

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And, and like I said, I had a
very complex system of belief,

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even though I was 14, where I
happened to figure it all out

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and I had the system and, and,
and if you got one thing wrong

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in the system, the whole thing
collapsed, right?

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You don't believe this part of
me.

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Oh, well, you just denied Jesus,
you know, you know, you have fun

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in the hell kind of thing.
And I'm only slightly

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exaggerating, fortunately.
And so the reason I smash idols

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now is because, my goodness,
we've built so much stuff up

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around Jesus.
That said, this is actually

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really important and some of
them are good things that we've

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over emphasized and some of them
are just totally bad, not

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Christian.
What are what are they doing

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next to Jesus kinds of things.
And so in the last couple years,

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I have felt, I think, the
closest to actually in my life

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like a verbal voice from God,
maybe not quite an audible

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voice, but literally to this
phrase, smashing idols.

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I need you to smash some idols.
And that brings to mind that the

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story of Gideon, who has a
similar call that is seems to be

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audible where he literally
smashes some of the idols there

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at night.
And you know what?

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People aren't happy.
So unfortunately, I'm still not

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making everybody happy because
what do, you know, like the

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basically definition of idols is
we really like those.

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And so you don't like what I
call them out.

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But what's changed is for me,
it's always go back to the

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center.
Jesus Christ, the clearest

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revelation of God, the Son of
God in flesh.

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That's the center.
And if we focus there, we're

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going to, you know, we're, we're
going to be a lot better off

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than kind of building all this
other complex system and stuff.

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You know, I, I love the
theology, right?

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I have the degrees in that.
I've written the papers and, you

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know, I, I love that nuanced
stuff.

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But at the end of the day, if
we've lost the plot, if we've

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lost Jesus Christ, what are we
even doing here?

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You know, we are we're just in
some kind of, you know,

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elaborate weird system.
Like a lot of the ways of the

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world, it's if you do XYZ, you
get XYZ.

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And it's this this view of the
world that just isn't

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necessarily accurate.
So I just want to I just want

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people to focus on Jesus now as
a is the easy the short version

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of all that.
I appreciate the the focus and

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the clarity on that.
That's really, really helpful.

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So let's go back to something
you said a moment ago, and that

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was this idea of things being
built up around Jesus.

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What are those look like in
modern day?

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As modern day people, we have
sort of a a view of idols as

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obviously like some gold wooden
statue or something like that.

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I got like a statue is, is
typically, at least in my mind,

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that's what pops into my head.
And so it can be hard to see

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those when it's like, I don't
got a statue in my room.

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I don't have a, you know,
whatever.

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I don't pray down to something.
I don't burn incense in front of

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XYZ.
What is that even going on?

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However, I, I think that's what
makes it more sinister, of

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course, is where we don't see
that.

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And, and I think I just kind of
define idols, as I often do for

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people is an idol is anything
you put next to God or, or in

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front of God or is in some
vicinity that allows you to have

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kind of a, a safety net in your
life.

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I, I, I use this term safety net
or somewhat you get a hedge your

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bets.
Because when I read the

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scriptures, what I see
constantly is the Israelites

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going back to the idols.
Because an idol protects you, it

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gives you something 'cause
growing up I was like, that is

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insane.
Why would you know God is coming

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down on fire and you're over
here.

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00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,840
That cow looks cool and it's
gold.

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I'm going to bow down to it.
Like that literally seems like

227
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,720
insane behavior.
So why was it a temptation to

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00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,440
people?
And it wasn't that the cow

229
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,520
looked pretty.
It was, well, this God promises

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00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:48,640
me something specific and I want
that thing the the power of our

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00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,960
monotheistic religion, which we
take for granted today, we have

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00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,920
one God that does it all.
In ancient times, every God kind

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00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,920
of had their speciality and
there was much more specific

234
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,040
promises.
That's a really attractive, I

235
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,320
can't have a kid.
Well, there's a fertility God

236
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,720
for that.
I need some rain on my crops.

237
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,120
There's a storm God for that.
There's a, there's something

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that a little more concretely,
'cause we're concrete thinkers

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00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,760
offers us a promise, but to get
that promise, we have to give

240
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,760
something to it.
So this was our, our route to

241
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,000
modern day idols.
The same kind of things occur,

242
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,240
even though it's not, you know,
a golden bowl or something like

243
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,480
that, a cow or whatever it is.
There are things in our life we

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00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,840
say, I, I'm scared, I have a
loss of control.

245
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:47,120
Like I technically trust God,
he's cool and all, but I'm going

246
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,080
to invest in this.
I'm going to get involved in

247
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,640
this.
I'm going to do this because I

248
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,200
don't fully trust God.
I, I want to hedge my bed.

249
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,960
So I want to have that safety
net around me.

250
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,360
And so then we get into things
like, you know, money being a

251
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,400
big one.
I'm going to have all the money

252
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,080
because that's what's going to
save me.

253
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:13,280
If if you know, things don't,
don't go my way, the money will

254
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,480
save me.
Or we say, man, if only the

255
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,080
government is XYZ and does all
these things that I like, then

256
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,320
things will be good.
So I'm going to put all my stock

257
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,800
into this kind of form of this,
these policies and whatever this

258
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,640
person things like that is a lot
of how idolatry shows up.

259
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,800
And then if sometimes you're
also just like, Hey, this thing

260
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,680
that brings me comfort and
pleasure, that's my safety net.

261
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,000
Because when I'm uncomfortable,
this thing makes me feel good.

262
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,240
And so I'm going to go to that.
Cause fun fact, following God

263
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,000
doesn't always make you feel
good.

264
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,840
It's not always a fun, rousing
good time.

265
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,160
And and so we like to have, we
like to have our options open.

266
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,080
And I think that at its core of
what a lot of idolatry is

267
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,520
nowadays.
Yeah, that's a really

268
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,840
interesting way to put it.
The the safety net keeping our

269
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,360
options open.
And so then let's contrast those

270
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:23,040
things with God the essentially
the anti idol.

271
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,080
So so contrast that for us
instead of options open in the

272
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,240
safety net.
What does it really mean?

273
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,160
Well, you know what we have in
the Old Testament God talking

274
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,760
about is I'm a I'm a jealous
God.

275
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,480
And that was always a weird
thing for me.

276
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,240
I'm like God's jealous when I
thought that was bad.

277
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,200
But the idea here is like, hey,
I, I I called dibs.

278
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,800
I get exclusive rights here
because one again, God is

279
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,160
supposed to be one stop
shopping.

280
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,000
There isn't other options.
This is it.

281
00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:01,520
This is this is what we need.
So all we need and and God's

282
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,880
view of the way that we should
do reality again, doesn't always

283
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,640
Jag with what we want.
It's not always comfortable and

284
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,040
nice and things like that.
But it is literally because, you

285
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,880
know, God created the world how
the world is supposed to work.

286
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,760
The Kingdom of God is the how
it's supposed to, not how it

287
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,520
does work.
The world is not quite fully

288
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:24,880
under the reign of the Kingdom
of God.

289
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,359
That's why there's brokenness.
That's why there's just not

290
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,320
great stuff going on.
But we live for a different

291
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,800
Kingdom.
We have a different allegiance.

292
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:40,400
So God is the alternative is
again versus everything that we

293
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:47,280
need that in God requires a full
allegiance because God alone,

294
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,440
but not you know how many
dollars in your bank account,

295
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,720
not what XYZ politician tells
you.

296
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,520
God alone has the path, has the
answers.

297
00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,720
This is the way to live because
again, God made the system.

298
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,080
So you go to, you know, the
designer to figure out how the

299
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,200
game was played.
That's just the logical thing.

300
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,280
Except a lot of us are like,
well, you know, I'm going to go

301
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:20,120
to some other creation instead
of the creator to figure out how

302
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:23,600
they think the game should be
played because their their

303
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,280
version sounds fun right now.
But that's typically just right

304
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,320
now, not necessarily in the long
term.

305
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,480
So let's come back to this idea
of sinister.

306
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:42,120
And you talked about how because
we can't see the golden calves

307
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,240
of today on for the most part,
you know what I mean, that the

308
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,080
idols of today are perhaps even
more sinister.

309
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,720
So maybe you can give us a few
more other than maybe just

310
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,360
dollars and cents.
Maybe there's other idols that

311
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,280
people aren't even aware of.
Share a Share a few of those

312
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,040
with us.
Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned,

313
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,120
they're they're a little more
sinister because even though I

314
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,600
talk about smashing idols, I
can't smash most of them.

315
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,920
Like I I physically cannot take
a hammer to them if that's

316
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,840
something I wanted to do.
The one that that that comes up

317
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:24,880
and then we talked about a
little bit on my show, probably

318
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,000
need to talk about more is, is
the idea of of some of the

319
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,920
technology we use, especially
our phones.

320
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,040
That is one kind of, I guess
example of a more physical kind

321
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,080
of thing that we don't think
about the way it controls the

322
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:45,720
rhythms of our day and the way
that social media tells us what

323
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,680
to do to get attention and
things like that.

324
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,840
I mean, I'm a podcaster, you're
a podcaster.

325
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,360
I don't know, you feel this, but
sometimes I have this, there's

326
00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,800
this dilemma where it's like, I
know what's trendy will get me

327
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,680
the views and will get me the
people talking, but that's not

328
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,640
what I want to actually talk
about.

329
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,680
Or I would rather say it with
more nuance.

330
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,440
That's also really hard about
things like social media and

331
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,360
like without nuances, what gets
the views and the virality and

332
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:20,840
and so things like that end up.
Controlling us, those are, I

333
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,320
guess, yeah, your phone's
physical.

334
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,960
But just the apparatus of
technology and social media and

335
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,000
all that stuff that we live for
and literally base our lives off

336
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:37,840
of that, that can be really
sinister and damaging.

337
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,400
This.
It's a way the world is set up

338
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,400
now.
It doesn't have to be, I mean,

339
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,120
we have choices and it doesn't
have to just the choice isn't

340
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,800
just I'm going to become Amish.
We have some choices here to

341
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,720
fight back and, and, and things
like that.

342
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,720
But it becomes powerful because
we when we start to think that's

343
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,000
just how the world works.
This is what you do.

344
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,840
You know, I'm a former teacher
and it's amazing when I'm

345
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,920
talking to these 10 and 12 year
olds and, and, you know, telling

346
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,680
them about things back in my day
and I'm not that old, you know,

347
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,840
I'm talking about like back in
my days, 10 years ago.

348
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,600
And they're like, what, what is
that even?

349
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,560
What are you even saying?
They have just so much, they

350
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,120
just, they don't have quite the
same concept of reality.

351
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,600
And, and it's a common thing we
all face of this is the only

352
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,840
reality.
They're the we're stuck in here.

353
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,600
I guess just do it.
This is this is how the world

354
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,960
works.
You know, whatever, deal with it

355
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,960
kind of thing.
And so there's so technology,

356
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,800
phones, social media, all that
kind of stuff.

357
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,240
That's a big one that that comes
up.

358
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,640
Really anything that you kind of
surrender to.

359
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,040
If it's the anti God, then
you're giving allegiance to

360
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,560
something and and saying this is
my whole thing, this is my whole

361
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,960
identity.
And that could be so many

362
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,920
different things for different
people.

363
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,080
When you say, OK, this group or
this, I mean fandom, whatever, I

364
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,560
guess, you know, if it's this is
my thing and what they say I'll

365
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,640
I'll agree with and what they
don't like I won't like as well.

366
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:25,320
That certainly gets idolatrous
and dangerous, even though it's

367
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,000
so stink and tempting because we
like those shortcuts of let me

368
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,080
just go with what the group
tells me to do.

369
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,680
That's easy.
But you know, call me crazy, but

370
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,920
I think individual thoughts,
important independent thinking.

371
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,520
And so that is a that's those
are some other ways, I suppose

372
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,400
that we get caught into
idolatry.

373
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,800
The the list is potentially
never ending.

374
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,480
But throughout my whole show,
coming up on a year now from

375
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,280
this most recent show,
everything comes down to I want

376
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,920
to control the situation and I'm
afraid of what happens if I

377
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,400
don't.
That is the common thing of

378
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,800
whatever is the idol of the of
the episode that we bring

379
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,600
whatever it is I want to control
because I'm terrified of what

380
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,680
will happen to me if I am not in
control of that.

381
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:25,200
That is super cogent control,
fear, terrified, afraid as a

382
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,960
result of the fear.
So maybe from your experience

383
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,520
and beyond, how do we go about
smashing that idol?

384
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,120
Yeah, that this is the, this
$1,000,000 question, of course.

385
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,840
And again, this is where I wish
I could go viral with the, the

386
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,480
simple three-step answer to, you
know, smash the idol in your

387
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,760
life.
But it's not that easy.

388
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,760
But I, I, I like to recommend a
couple things and one of the

389
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,960
first ones is it's really hard
to smash an idol by yourself.

390
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,480
It's hard to smash your own
idol.

391
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,240
And then so I always recommend
community accountability.

392
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:14,000
Get some people around you,
ideally people that don't quite

393
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,880
struggle with the same things as
you.

394
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,960
We got to have some people that
either overcome this or don't

395
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,760
struggle with it.
We have to have some

396
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,000
accountability there or else it
becomes kind of echo chamber and

397
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,240
often things don't quite get
done.

398
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,600
So I always recommend community,
whatever that looks like.

399
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,520
I mean, ideally your local
church community, talk to a

400
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,040
minister, talk to a pastor,
whatever you need to do.

401
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,080
There are also some online
communities, even though I

402
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,680
talked about technology earlier,
not all bad.

403
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,320
There's some great ways to plug
in for things for whatever it is

404
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,960
for you that you're just a
little too focused on.

405
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,960
You have that allegiance to and
in your, you're obsessed with

406
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,040
control over in one certain
area.

407
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:03,040
So one community.
And the the second thing, and,

408
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,800
and perhaps I should have said
this first, is just kind of how

409
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,560
we identify whatever that is.
And, and we can typically

410
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,960
identify that idol by the thing
that we just really don't want

411
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,720
to let go.
It's the one thing I said, I

412
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,720
can't give that up.
And I, I tell the story often of

413
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,040
when I was a kid and my mom felt
like I was watching too much TV,

414
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,920
just on the TV too much.
You go do something else.

415
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,280
And, and I told her I said I'm
not addicted TV.

416
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,680
And then she said, OK, well,
give it up then if you're not

417
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,920
addicted, give it up, go do
something else.

418
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,880
And I told her, well, you know,
I'm not addicted, but I just

419
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,680
don't want to give it up.
So I'm going to keep watching

420
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,000
TV, but I'm not addicted.
I could, I just am not going to.

421
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,880
I just don't want to.
Well, well, turns out, you know,

422
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,240
for those playing along at home,
that's what an addiction is.

423
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,280
It's like when you cannot
actually give it up.

424
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,920
And, and so we got to identify
those things.

425
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,720
And again, if it is an
addiction, if it's something

426
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,080
like that, there are these other
models that are helpful.

427
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,960
You need that community support
and you need, you know, I, I've

428
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,240
never been a A, but you know,
the idea.

429
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,400
If you need the higher power,
the same thing applies here,

430
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,360
especially more so when our
higher power has a specific

431
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,800
name.
We need an alternative.

432
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,920
We need an alternative.
You know, if you're quitting

433
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,920
smoking, maybe you start chewing
gum.

434
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,520
There's always something else to
break those bad habits.

435
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,640
So we need an alternative.
If your problem is I am just

436
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,440
defined by this particular
group, this particular political

437
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,040
party, whatever it is, then
maybe the alternative is I need

438
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,520
a church.
I need a Christian community to

439
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:56,400
be ultra defined by if I'm
living for the the likes and the

440
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,640
hearts that float across the
screen on social media, then

441
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,720
what's your alternative
Alternative to that?

442
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:06,560
I don't know.
I can't even think of anything

443
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,520
off the top of my head.
But if we brainstorm long

444
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,800
enough, we could find an
alternative to that.

445
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,280
Find an alternative, find a
replacement.

446
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,200
It doesn't necessarily have to
be a one to one parallel.

447
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,000
You know, half the time it's
like I just need to go serve

448
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,200
other people.
Let's not make it about me.

449
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:26,880
If our issues control and fear,
go serve the homeless, go hang

450
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,960
out with some foster kids,
whatever it needs to be, just

451
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,840
don't make it about yourself
anymore.

452
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:35,960
And that's how we can begin to
break those.

453
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,120
But we're going to team up #1
we're going to create some

454
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:41,800
alternatives.
And, and the whatever that

455
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,440
pattern is of, of addiction, we
got to really think long and

456
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,280
hard about that.
And you know, step one is

457
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,600
always, always admitting you
have a problem.

458
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,480
So that's where we would start
for sure.

459
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:58,880
Yeah, thanks.
So maybe we can go into a

460
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,720
scenario where on the surface
something looks good and

461
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,400
wholesome.
And so someone may be so

462
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,240
impassioned about it.
Maybe it's even in the

463
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,160
ministerial type of space.
Maybe it's mission work or, you

464
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,840
know, reaching the homeless or
something along those lines.

465
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,840
Where does it, or how do we
identify the fact that it could

466
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:30,000
be going off the rails and that
the motives are no longer where

467
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,240
they need to be?
Yeah, You know, I've had some

468
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:40,160
really good conversations on my
show of late about how certain

469
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,440
metrics of church can be a
little bit idolatrous.

470
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,520
One of those is, you know,
people in the pews, right?

471
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,280
The numbers 'cause we have this
kind of human tendency of like,

472
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:57,440
well, a lot of people must mean
the church is awesome and oh

473
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,640
surely their teachings totally
correct and everything's good

474
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,800
and fine and dandy because
there's a lot of butts and

475
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,960
seats.
Lot of people fill in those pews

476
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,600
kind of thing.
We, we count those numbers or

477
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,560
even other metrics and things
like amount of baptisms or

478
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,680
confessions of faith, whatever
it is, we get really caught up

479
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,560
in those numbers.
And, and what dawned on me in

480
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,840
some of those conversations in a
way to kind of identify some of

481
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,840
these things.
I mean, you use the word motive,

482
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,680
right?
We, we obviously like, we want

483
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,920
people to go to church.
We want people to be saved.

484
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,240
Like those are technically good
motives.

485
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,560
But what often happens with any
kind of idol is it becomes all

486
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,720
about the ends and not about the
means.

487
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:46,600
We forget the method in which we
go about something is, is very

488
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,600
key.
So like I've had a lot of people

489
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,120
in my life's tell me like, well,
you know what?

490
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,320
I'm just going to get super
duper rich and then I'm going to

491
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,880
give that to the poor.
Great.

492
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,240
Giving the good, good stuff.
Like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm fine

493
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,200
with that last part there.
It was like, but but how are you

494
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,040
going to get rich here?
Are you scamming people?

495
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,200
Are you throwing kids in
sweatshops?

496
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,920
Like the means matter?
And that's how we'd know really

497
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,080
if we've gotten off track, if it
becomes so laser focused on

498
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,440
something that's like, I'm going
to steamroll over all this bad

499
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,000
stuff or, or over all this good
stuff rather and ignore that.

500
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,800
So, you know, back to like the
church metrics thing.

501
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,320
Great.
We're, we're counting amount of

502
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,120
people, but what did we do to
get there?

503
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:38,680
Did we water down the gospel?
Did we accommodate to this?

504
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,240
Is everybody coming?
Because there's free pizza in

505
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,120
the youth group?
Like what we, we got to ask some

506
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,240
questions here.
And then of course, especially

507
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,000
in that scenario, we have to
ask, is that even the right

508
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,720
metric?
Is that even really the end

509
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,560
goal?
Because like, I'm back to the

510
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,360
example of I'm going to get
really rich so I can give to the

511
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,040
poor.
I'm like, well, you know, you

512
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,920
don't necessarily have to be a
millionaire to help the poor.

513
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,360
You could volunteer your time.
You could advocate for this

514
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,760
policy or position that helps
people.

515
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,080
You could like there are other
things you can do to meet that

516
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,400
same goal, but we have
particular things in our head.

517
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,040
If that has to be the way to do
it.

518
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,520
The, the only metric of, of a
good healthy church is they must

519
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,320
be having over 1000 people and
they have 18 Sunday services

520
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,480
somehow and whatever.
Like, you know, we get caught

521
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,000
up.
It's like, hold on here, let's

522
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,640
identify what did we steamroll
to get here?

523
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,680
What are some good stuff that we
missed?

524
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,040
Because I remind people the
story of Scripture is so much a

525
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,680
story of waiting patience, not
my favorite fruit of spirit, but

526
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,440
it's so much about the journey.
Like literally, there are

527
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,000
literal journeys in the Bible
where that is a time of, of

528
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,560
being tested, of being shaped
and formed.

529
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,680
And and The thing is, like in
the story of Lazarus, for

530
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,600
instance, where Jesus chills out
for a couple days before going

531
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,240
to heal the sick Lazarus, we see
an even greater miracle.

532
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,160
The means matter.
What we do in the in between

533
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,360
really matters.
It's not just let's rush to the

534
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,560
end.
Let's open the last chapter.

535
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,080
That's not the point here.
There's there's stuff in between

536
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,080
that we have to pay attention
to.

537
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,960
That is always my caution for
people pay attention to the way

538
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,920
in which we go about even the
really, really good things.

539
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,080
And then to think about, we want
to accomplish this goal, but is

540
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,360
this specific?
Give you the word metric, but is

541
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:54,640
this specific definition or
criteria the best way to

542
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,280
accomplish that?
Those are some hard questions we

543
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,720
can all ponder.
Yeah.

544
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,160
Well, man, really appreciate all
that.

545
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,520
Maybe we can you can bring us
home here by bringing us back to

546
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,600
what you talked about earlier,
the core and you were just

547
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,120
moments ago alluding to journey
and journeys in the Bible.

548
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,800
Of course, Jesus chilling out
before he goes and raises

549
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,640
Lazarus.
So bring us home, man.

550
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,680
Land this plane with with
bringing us right back to the

551
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:36,040
center.
Yeah, you know, I, I am amazed

552
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:42,440
at this strange almost paradox
in Jesus.

553
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,120
And I explained this on a on a
podcast I was on hosted by an

554
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,160
atheist.
I don't think he got it, but

555
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,960
what I told him was he
definitely didn't get it when I

556
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,800
told him was that like the
things that Jesus teaches and

557
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,120
tells us when you first hear
them sound literally insane.

558
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,520
It doesn't make any sense.
Why would you do that?

559
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,880
Because it's against every
natural impulse.

560
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,040
Turn the other cheek to like
give my money to other people

561
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,560
that didn't earn it.
Like there's some things Jesus

562
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,040
says that sound crazy, but
what's compelling for me about

563
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:23,400
Jesus is after I sit with it and
look at these things, I realize,

564
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,400
wait a second, they actually
make complete sense.

565
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,679
That is totally makes sense as a
way to live.

566
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,760
It's going to create the best
possible world for everybody and

567
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,040
for us as individuals too.
So that's Jesus.

568
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,400
It is really hard when you don't
know Jesus very well when you

569
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,199
first meet him kind of thing.
The things he says are are kind

570
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:52,719
of crazy and you know, different
groups of people, progressives,

571
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,840
conservatives, whatever Co-op
certain aspects of Jesus that

572
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,120
they like and emphasize this
over that the truth is about

573
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,880
Jesus.
He's definitely very more

574
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,560
complex than kind of these flat
flannel graph versions or

575
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,520
anything like that.
But yeah, things do seem really

576
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,880
crazy since we're laying to the
plane here.

577
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,360
I, I just think you got to make
Jesus the pilots and the, the

578
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,920
methods, the journey doesn't
always make sense.

579
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,600
But when you get to know Jesus,
you realize, and usually this is

580
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,400
after the journey, you know, not
necessarily when you're in the

581
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,360
middle of the mass, you realize
that actually made so much more

582
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,840
sense.
That is such a better way to do

583
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,160
things.
So always want to encourage

584
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,680
people get to know this Jesus
guy.

585
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,840
We have churches all over the
world.

586
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,600
We obviously have the Bible.
We have these things that can

587
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,200
help us get to know the person
of Jesus and we're going to go

588
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,200
for a wild ride.
But by the end it'll you'll,

589
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,680
you'll have enjoyed.
It'll be pretty fun.

590
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,440
Yeah, man, I've got a lot of
aspects of my life that very

591
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,320
much echo what you described
there towards the end, that it

592
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,200
really does not feel like this
is making any sense.

593
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,160
And then as that particular
phase of a journey ends, you

594
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:19,120
look back and you go, wow, that
was so much better than I

595
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,560
thought.
He clearly knew what he was

596
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,320
doing.
I didn't, man.

597
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,840
I'm glad we went through that,
even though it was a challenge.

598
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,520
So right on, man.
Well, how can folks get a little

599
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,560
bit more information about you?
Check out your podcast, Tell Us

600
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,600
All That Stuff.
Yeah, I hang out on sub stack a

601
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:44,160
lot these days on on sub stack
just at Jake

602
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,680
dobrians.substack.com.
You can also get there by going

603
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,760
to jakedobrians.com.
If you can figure out either way

604
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,920
to spell Dobrans, you know, just
check out the show notes for the

605
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,800
title or whatever for that.
That's where I hang out a lot

606
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,640
because I write a Friday
newsletter that's usually kind

607
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,800
of a funny story with a
spiritual point.

608
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,360
Something on that, on this theme
of smashing idols, what's the

609
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,600
name of my newsletter?
And then my podcast, which is

610
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,400
called Christianity Without
Compromise, Choosing Jesus over

611
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,440
every idol that's on Tuesday,
that comes out on Tuesday.

612
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,400
And both of those you can
subscribe on sub stack.

613
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,320
And that's kind of the the place
on the Internet I hang out most

614
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,120
where you can get to know me
most.

615
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,240
And if you really, you know,
didn't get sick of me blabbing

616
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:36,080
today, I got tons more content
for you over there.

617
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,800
Awesome.
Well, hopefully the listeners

618
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,000
will check that out.
Jake, been a real pleasure, man.

619
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,320
I'm glad we got to explore idols
and some of the nuances of it

620
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,720
and some of the realities.
The biggest of which is it

621
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:53,760
really comes back to King Jesus
being #1 being at the center of

622
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,920
everything.
So thanks for illuminating all

623
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,920
that for us, man.
Really appreciate you being on

624
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,240
the show.
Yeah, for sure.

625
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,640
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626
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,880
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627
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,880
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628
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629
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,680
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630
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,560
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631
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